Interview with Debbie Zucker, founder of whiteonwhiteconsulting
whiteonwhiteconsulting.com
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I interviewed the founder of whiteonwhiteconsulting to reveal her thoughts on racism and how to stop it.
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T: Why did you start your organization?
DZ: I started whiteonwhiteconsulting in 2017. When I was about 9 years old, the huge civil rights movement was going on in the US. I always felt like I was too little to get involved. All the big, cool people were taking leadership, and white and black people were working together. Now that I'm older, and there's clearly a powerful civil rights movement happening now, I feel like now it's my time. I can step up and be a part of it.
I was really heartbroken about how many black people were being targeted, shot, and killed. It made my heart heavy. I asked myself 'What can I do?'
The organization that I was a part of at the time was a mostly white organization of social workers and psychologists. And so I thought, 'why don't I just start with the people I know, the people right around me?' So I started a group for white therapists who wanted to think about racism. And then a couple of people of color later came to that group, so it became a more interracial conversation. That was in about 2015.
T: What ethnicities are you trying to help in stopping racism?
DZ: Really all ethnicities and all races. I believe that if this country solved anti-Black racism, everybody's lives [would] go better. Whether you are Asian or Jewish or [came] from a mixed background, you [would] benefit. White people too. I feel like if we focus on anti-Black racism, it isn't like we're ignoring everybody else. We're solving deep problems that go back to enslavement and before, that undermine everyone's life and health, that undermine our country. When we decide to solve that issue, things ease up for everyone of color. And white people are also more healed.
T: Have you read anything in the Torah that inspired you to help stop racism?
DZ: It's interesting in terms of fighting racism. Moses leading the Jewish people through our difficulties and into the promised land took a lot of courage. I'm inspired by people trying to lead anything anywhere. It always scared me to be a leader and to really stand up and open my mouth. And Moses was also scared, and he had a temper, and a stutter -- he was not, like, a perfect person. He was a regular person with faults, just like me or you. So I'm inspired by him leading, even though it was a hard job.
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T: Do you think we can ever be an equal country?
DZ: I hope so. I think we have a shot at it. I think it's going to take some work. We have to work on the broad public policy level, but we also have to work personally. What kind of distorted ideas did we swallow without meaning to? We swallow those ideas even in school, sometimes against our will. Sometimes it's about what isn't said: Nobody taught me Black history. Nobody taught me labor history. Nobody taught me Jewish history in my public school. Why? History wasn't very broad, the way I learned it. I think we have to improve and deepen our education so that we can start to undo the mess we're in. We have to start with young people but people of all ages needs a a lot more of an understanding of the history and effects of white supremacy.
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T: Do you think the world overall is becoming more or less racist?
DZ: It feels like one foot is on the brake and one foot is on the accelerator. It feels like the car is trying to move forward and the car is trying to stop at the same time. I think there's a ton of hope. Lots and lots of people are learning more and more about racism. Then there's also lots and lots of people who are really scared that the majority of the world is people of color, and that the majority of this country will soon be people of color. That scares a lot of white people who fear their space is shrinking and they will be left behind. I think that the big fear and the big forward movement are happening at the same time. I'm just rooting for the anti-racism team. Ultimately we're going to be victorious, but I think there's going to be some bumps in the road. It's going to be messy and painful along the way, but I'm ultimately thinking that justice will win.
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T: What can people do to make the world a better place? What can I do?
DZ: Try stuff that scares you. It takes a certain amount of guts to just try something new. Try talking to people that you've never talked to before. Also, don't hate or dismiss people who disagree with you. The country's gotten more polarized. It's almost like there's permission to just be really angry at the people who don't think the way you think. Instead, let's try to be curious about why people think and feel the way they do. We can ask questions, like "why did you come to this conclusion" and "why are you so scared of people of color? Why do you think you're going to lose everything good in your life, just because people of color want a piece of the pie, too?"
T: Do you talk to people with color about racism, and what would they like us to know?
DZ: I think people of color would like us to put our shoulder to the wheel and work on stuff that affects them. Sometimes white people just like to read books about race and then feel good about themselves for doing that. Reading is very good to do. But I think people of color would like white people to use our racial advantages to help fight for fairness. For example, we could be donating money to organizations that are trying to keep people's voting rights to end voter suppression. We could work on criminal justice problems, because mostly people of color suffer from the way the criminal justice system is set up. They don't want us to just stop saying racist things and be nice, which is of course also critically important to do. I think they want us to understand that we're part of a really imbalanced, distorted system and to use our privilege to get some work done. Work that will make life materially and personally better for them. They will have better food, better healthcare, a better justice system, really concrete stuff. And when I speak with people of color, I try to listen more than I talk. Because people of color have had to listen to white people for a long, long time.
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